Google's Little Box Challenge

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Dan Dar3
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Google's Little Box Challenge

Post by Dan Dar3 »

Here's one for you electrical engineers and enthusiasts, Google's Little Box Challenge to build a (much) smaller power inverter for a $1,000,000 prize :shock:

Little Box Challenge
http://littleboxchallenge.com/

Forbes: Google's Little Box Challenge; A $1 Million Prize For Creating A Better, Smaller, Solar Power Inverter
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall ... -inverter/

Forbes: Three Reasons Google Might Be Serious About The Grid
http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelkane ... -the-grid/
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

Post by professor_jonny »

It is a good idea on paper but i do not see any advancment becomming from this.

There is two electrical ways to do this flyback and chargepump.

Flyback is the current method where a transistor switches a step up transformer and its feed back is fed back in to the primary for voltage control.

Charge pump is another way that is only utilised for small scale pre amps, voltage meters, car ignition systems, microphones and a few other devices that need a negative voltage rail, it could be scaled for inverters but it would require large low esr caps and realibility and the large current's involved negate its use in power generation.

think of it as charging a capicator from a supply then putting it in series with the supply it does this many times a second to create double the supply voltage or a a negative voltage with respect to the neutral or negative terminal from the supply.

Part of the problem is the chicken and the egg syndrome with some of this they need to use igbt and toyoriodal transformers to reduce size and complexicity but with out a large sales base the price of these components wont come down.

It would be better for them to promote something to make mains wind generation more efficient, the current way they work is to trim the props or place large brakes on the generators to keep them at mains frequency if they utilised inverters they could generate peak power at what ever the wind speed.

I did some work in this area some time ago and i suggested to maridian energy in nz to use the generators to generate high voltage ac then put this into a a bridge rectifier to create high voltage dc so it could be chopped up to the grid, then the generators would create power at any wind speed.

if you go to a wind farm they spec some for low medium and high wind conditions and if it is really windy the ones designed for low wind shut off and trim the blades until the wind conditions suit as the breaks could not cope to slow them down to syncronise.

the problem you have with this is if the voltage produced by the genearator is under the voltage of the dc link no power will flow into the dc bus creating no power but it is a smaller percentage than what is wasted by not having them generating or reducing their output from slowing them down.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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Interesting but totally impractical. I use solar down the farm but that is because I have little choice. As solar panels create DC voltage that then needs to be regulated so it doesn't blow up every thing connected to it when the voltage goes too high, I prefer to use that DC power that is then stored in a battery bank, so you actually have some power after the sun is not on the panels any longer, about 12 hours in summer and about 6 in winter. As soon as you convert DC to AC you run into all sorts of problems and these are not really easy to cure. AC for one runs at a frequency. Here in Australia it is 50htz that being 50 times a second it changes direction of the power being supplied along the two wires that go to the device being powered by it. This frequency has to be very close to that frequency or again, that device can fry. A good example of this is AC motors. In Australia, a 50Htz motor will run cool, a 50-60Htz motor will run hot and a 60Htz motor will fry. This frequency is simulated in an inverter but nothing is as good as a power generator like those used in power stations. I honestly think as smarter idea would be to convert all the required devices to run on DC. On wind generators I say good luck. It has been proven here that they actually use more power than they produce over a year. This is because, although it makes everyone looking at them feel all nice and fuzzy inside thinking these are actually producing power because they are spinning, the truth is all the wind turbines need to be feed with mains power off the grid, created by the coal fired power plants, to have the propellers spinning for when the wind actually starts to blow because the energy from the wind, no matter how hard it blows is not enough to get them to start turning initially. The days of wind are far less than those that are so therefore, less power is created as opposed to that ever being produced. Add to this the initial cost of the instillation and the very high maintenance and you are left with a very costly way of producing power on a large scale. It may be fine for small household installations but a lot of work is required to make them competitive with coal , gas or hydro generation. One last point is the quality of the actual components required to make an inverter. The quality control of the now mostly Chinese or Asian components is a t best, poor. In years now gone when these parts were of high quality and tested after small batches so problems were limited to small number of parts, these new builders are not in there effort to maximize profits, quality has gone. One look at the life expectancy of modern T.V.s confirms this. How many of you threw out a perfectly working CRT T.V. that was at least 10 years old made from old parts and have since needed to replace the "new" LCD or plasma T.V. at least once since made with new parts?.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

Post by professor_jonny »

Yes they do power them off the grid in no wind conditions this is where if they were in low wind conditions the could stil sync with the mains with my idea.

Converting everything to dc in reality will never happen as just about every thing relys on it.
ac also is not so harsh on switches as the zero changover current pattern it requres smaller lines and there is less losses in its generation from alternators as opposed to generators, it is also more suited to transmission.

Maybe they need to make ac solar pannels for on grid solutions :-) not such a silly idea really they could create the transistors and fets on the silicon solar cells them selves to give you ac output ?
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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I'd have a lot more faith in this idea. As every town has a water storage tank mounted high to supply mains water pressure to all the houses in the district, why not have water turbines producing electricity in these supply lines seeing as this water is used at a constant pressure and demand daily?. Seems to me an infrastructure that is already set up waiting for a "localized hydro electricity system". Add to this water turbines added to the sewage lines from the town, all be it, there will be solids in the sewer. :shock: I still see nuclear as the only "real" clean alternative all be it with it's leftovers being a hard thing to get rid of, I see no issues with burying this stuff in 1/2 mile deep pits and buried in the middle of deserts around the world because after all man only has dug this deep in his mining efforts up to this date and it's not exactly as someone is just going to start digging at that exact location straight down and ever uncover it accidentally. Most dinosaur bones uncovered are less than 100 meters below the surface and we are deliberately looking for them. If it was to be placed in desert locations, by the time the climate in that location was to change enough for man to have an interest in that area, the waste would be more than neutralized by then.

I just thought of something else. If the US was really concerned as Barack Obama would like us all to believe, why not simply double the mains voltage of there nation from the 110-120 volt AC to that what we use here, 220-240 volts AC from the mains power?. You could literally double your nation's power production over night without building another power plant because the higher the voltage, the lower the current. You double the voltage and you half the current and you also half the size of the cable required to feed the device. The current is what determines the need for more power plants.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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The bizarre thing about nuclear power is how dated it all is. There are new designs which create less waste or even use the waste from our current power stations as fuel, but since there's this stigma around anything nuclear none of these new designs are built and even building a new power station based on old designs is difficult to get the go ahead on.
The result is you end up with horribly dated power stations still being used(like Fukushima which was built in the 60's) which means there is more to go wrong and more to fear. The anti nuclear people making a fuss about how dangerous it all is makes it more dangerous :lol:
N.B. Things do actually seem to be progressing now with Bill Gates investing lots of money into new reactor designs etc.

As for wind turbines they also have to put the brakes on in high winds to stop the bearings burning out or it ripping itself apart, cue amusing videos:



I like the look and idea of wind turbines but I can't help doubt how good they actually are.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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Interesting thing about technology, including all mentioned here is that they all went through infancy where they were laughed at horribly, then someone smelled the money and hired people that felt the challenge (or maybe even partly felt doing something for the greater good) and took it further. I think Google (or maybe more like Sergey Brin) is genuinely trying to push things forward and that usually starts by being willing to challenge everything you know about the field and having a look at it again from every other angle you shot down before as "no, that wouldn't work".
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

Post by asbo »

I agree Dan, these incentives like the Google Lunar X Prize can only push things forward, and its rather exciting :)
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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@asbo nuclear has the stigma from heroshima and chenoble which is kind of hard to shake it may be cleaner now days but there will allways be that in the back of everyones mind.
waste and no way to dispose of it apart from burrying it in bunkers to forget about it for tens of thousands of years to naturally decay is the other baggage.

the thing they need to sort is nuclear fission that is totally clean.
they can get it to happen but it requires heating helium or hydrogen to 1 milion degrees in a special magnitec gravity chamber in due time we may see some advancments in ths area in the future to harness the energy produced from this, it produces more energy than fusion and only gives off water or helium.

There is also solar towers that reflect direct the sun at a heat exchanger in a tower to create steam to run a power plant, it is in use in some countries at the moment.

there is also the sky elevator with solar pannels in space and the power comes down the sky elevators suspension cable.

but the idea to generate power from a resivior xman if it requires them to pump it up to the tank will require more power than it will generate the problem is the have to have the water go somewhere too i guess.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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professor_jonny wrote:@asbo nuclear has the stigma from heroshima and chenoble which is kind of hard to shake it may be cleaner now days but there will allways be that in the back of everyones mind.
yeah and that really annoys me, why can't people take the time to learn the difference between bombs and reactors? They just blindly jump on the nuclear is bad bandwagon and picture mushroom clouds over power plants :lol:
I live fairly close to a nuclear power plant and feel perfectly safe, I think this is because I have a basic understanding of how they work. I know that in the event of a complete power failure, like at fukushima, the heated steam which drives the turbines can also be used to drive the coolant pumps so the reactor won't meltdown.

I probably sound like a pro nuclear nut now, I'm not, nuclear is far from ideal but I think at the moment its better than burning fossil fuels.

As for wind turbines using electricity to turn when there's no wind, is that always the case? Because the ones around here stop when the wind drops completely.

I'm quite disappointed by the lack of advancements in wave power, here in the UK we're surround by water and it seems a shame we can't get electricity from the constant 'flapping' of the waves as my sister puts it :lol:
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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Arr wave power. I thought it too showed some potential but to date out here to no avail. It was one of the "new, green projects" followed by endless green jobs to be created and all that has happened to date is several "dreams" smashed to pieces around the Australian coast looking like ships that run aground using hundreds of millions of dollars from the "Green Energy Fund" created by literally doubling our power bills that is supplied by our coal fired power plants. As for the wind turbines. The turbines out here, made in Finland by the way so no local green job creation there, are only idle when they are having maintenance, require maintenance or awaiting parts from Finland.

As for nuclear. Certainly not my choice either but seeing as we supply the world with it's supply, why not?. Japan has none, it comes from here. France has none, it comes from here. Germany has none, it comes from here. This country is the most stable, earthquake proof on the planet and we don't use what we sell for our power generation?.. I can assure you us Aussies won't go building a reactor on the beach that faces the ocean that is prone to tsunamis like one of our customers of our high grade Uranium thought was a grand idea. Nor would we be powering the pumps required for circulating the coolant water around the rods using "only" power created from the power plant itself without so much as a back up generator. And I doubt very much we would have ran and totally deserted the crippled nuclear power plant when it needed immediate attention that could have stopped such a catastrophe. I'm not implying we would have been as brave as the Russians using there ideas of burying the crippled reactor in wet concrete dropped by helicopters knowing it meant certain death but I was surprised at the total evacuation that happened at Fukashema. What happened to all the relatives of the kamikaze I remember thinking when that story hit the News.

One thing important to remember when changing one form of energy into another is learnt in Science at school and that is you always have losses so therefore would it not be best to leave it in it's present form rather than trying to make a new form adding looses when you are actually out to achieve economical use of resources?. This is the whole reason we use coal. Not to keep it in it's present form but because it has so much energy, we can afford to loose massive amounts of it creating the new form, it is still a viable proposition.

I think leaving solar as it's original form of energy as heat is far smarter than using panels to convert it to DC electrical energy and then convert that DC electrical energy to AC electricity. That is energy being changed 3 times and we are in the quest for efficiency and that is from a form of energy that doesn't have a whole lot to loose to start with unlike coal.

Wind I believe will never be viable because it costs so much to use that form of energy even if it is free from the planet as the waves are proving to be. We just cannot or have not made suitable equipment that can harness such energy.

I did once see a fine idea of converting one energy form to another that I thought showed enormous promise though. One smart guy saw that in plumbing he was working on, there was a section of pipe that was suffering from "water hammer" and this was heating up that section of pipe. He went back to his workshop and created a "water hammer machine". It was very basic but it worked extremely well. It was basically a solid drum shaped block of metal spinning in the center on a shaft mounted on bearings and this drum spun inside an outer housing. The drum had 90 degree holes bored into the side of the drum and lined up with holes bored from a side of the drum forming a through hole bored in the metal that went around a 90 degree bend inside the drum so what was actually happening was water was going in one side and coming back out at 90 degrees from where it went in. The outer housing had holes that would line up with the holes in the drum twice per drum revolution and the drum was powered by a small motor. Now this setup I saw had about 15 holes about 1/2" each in size and the unit was powered by a 1/2Hp electric motor that was spinning the inner drum. As the drum was sped up via the electric motor on a speed controller, the water would go from luke warm to boiling simply by speeding up the center as the water was being feed from the outer housing, through the inner drum and out the outer drum's other side. Now this device was shown to scientists that did a whole heap of measuring and they confirmed this setup was actually using significantly less energy to heat cold water than man had ever been able to achieve in the past. Man's approach had always been to heat water using an electric coil submerged in the water to make the water hot but this system was only using electrical energy to spin a motor which is requiring far less.

It is an idea like this that is really required to win this award and the cash. Thinking outside the square. :D
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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xman wrote: I did once see a fine idea of converting one energy form to another...
That'll be a Cavitation Heater, information is sparse but it seems it turned out to only be useful on an industrial scale.
We definitely need alternatives, like that, to just burning things or heating with an electric element. Thankfully, here in the UK at least, you can now have heat pumps of the ground and air source variety installed in residential buildings, we will be installing an air source heat pump soonish. You get around 3 times as much heat per kilowatt of electricity as you do from heating with an element :)
xman wrote:we are in the quest for efficiency
We, and whatever intelligent life exists after we're all gone, always will be. Eventually every source of energy in the universe will be used up, always with the by-product of heat, and all that will be left is a lukewarm nothingness. At least that's the current theory, dreadfully depressing isn't it :lol: Does anyone else think about that? It seems everyone is scurrying around worrying about celebrities and money etc whilst I ponder bigger things like that :?
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

Post by retromonger »

imagine all HDDs would be replaced by SSDs. more or less 90%of power-consumption for memory would be reduced.
i can image it would save a ton of energy in bureaucratic states like the one i live in = Germany and The USA for that matter.
just turning of bureaucracy is of course the best way to go.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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retromonger wrote:and The USA for that matter.
They'd actually need to be using hard drives in the first place :lol:
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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A HDD usually goes between 3-8W and a SSD between 0.5-2W.
If you just change your large sceen monitor profile from brigthest to moderate you could safe 20W on the spot.
If you change from a normal 100W light build (incandescent) to a good 20W energy saving light (check Lumens on packaging, e.g. Philips Tornado), you could save 80W.
And it goes on...

So starting to save energy by replacing HDDs with SSDs (when no need) would be probably one of the most expensive choices.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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A good teaching came my way when I had to start producing my own power, water, light and heat on the farm. It's funny how you think you're fairly knowledgeable on a subject and how incredibly wrong you can be as was my case. I was always taught not to give up on an idea and to work through your problems till you solve them till it works but when you are literally banging your head against a wall I have learnt to give up on the idea and try something completely different to solve the problem. That little exercise, the farm , has really opened my eyes to just how ungrateful we are for what we get. That all comes about when you have to provide for yourself I guess.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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my power-consumption is at 1200 kW a year. which will go down quit a bit till next year.
i live in a single household. my usage of electronics is a bit higher than others. because most things a do myself. cooking for example. never go to restaurants.


Frequency is the key for everything anyway.
one example is this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZoiY3F ... L43W9r8BUa
Ones these technologies get more attraction, things will move on.

Anyways..
Energy is not an energy problem. its human behavior.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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I on the other hand came to appreciate the same things as a child growing up in communist Romania, where mostly everyone in the cities were living in tall concrete blocks of apartments, with scheduled power cuts to keep the consumption down, hot water a couple of days a week and certain foods on rations or just with long queues - as a child, it wasn't all that bad, your parents do all they can to adjust and not have you suffer, but it was really the bare necessities from a modern perspective. That made me appreciate later (still, and probably for the rest of my life) some of the little things that most people just take for granted and never think on the long chain of events that has to happen for them to get them, and I hate watching waste or inefficiencies that can be easily avoid. If you think about it, in certain ways we all live like royals only 100 years ago, and we don't even know it...
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

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Dan Dar3 wrote:I on the other hand came to appreciate the same things as a child growing up in communist Romania, where mostly everyone in the cities were living in tall concrete blocks of apartments, with scheduled power cuts to keep the consumption down, hot water a couple of days a week and certain foods on rations or just with long queues - as a child, it wasn't all that bad, your parents do all they can to adjust and not have you suffer, but it was really the bare necessities from a modern perspective. That made me appreciate later (still, and probably for the rest of my life) some of the little things that most people just take for granted and never think on the long chain of events that has to happen for them to get them, and I hate watching waste or inefficiencies that can be easily avoid. If you think about it, in certain ways we all live like royals only 100 years ago, and we don't even know it...
Same here. i grew up at a place surrounded by farms. heat with woods and coal. bailing water early in the morning if you wanted nice shower. hacking woods all summer long carrying dark coal all day long.My noise was filled with coal powder every day.
as a turkish guy in Germany its quite a different world for society. i grew up broke. but today i appreciate all small things and im more or less self sufficient.


i dont have a car. ride a bike. dont watch tv ant stuff.
but my computer is on for about 10 hour a day. not always in use, but on. about 40 watts without monitor.
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Re: Google's Little Box Challenge

Post by retromonger »

can we put this talk about general power consumption to an own thread ?
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