Vision dashboard

[professor_jonny]

there are other projects that have gpl breaches just some times there isn't some one voicing their opinion or it is not in such a public arena.

[Bigby]

Care to elaborate on these other gpl breaches?

You can PM me if you don't want it in the public arena.

[BuZz]

out them !

but in all seriousness, there are lots of projects out there with GPL violations, from commercial products such as routers to software. many of them get threatened with legal action, and then abide by the rules - busybox is one piece of software that is constantly abused by router/embedded device producers, as is things like FFMPEG (which xbmc/xbmc4xbox uses).

I don't know of any GPL software developers that happily sit back and ignore it when they realise though.

[BuZz]

I dunno about you lot, but I feel this thread has run it's course. In the initial situation I don't see it being resolved any time soon. Although I'd like to be proved wrong. Simple as

A) binary release including full complete source release = welcomed with open arms.

[Nextelhalo]

Cheers to that Buzz

[Bigby]

Yeah, Cheers...

[BuZz]

*burp*

[Bigby]

I have some questions..

BP does not actually release the binaries for Vision (or CoinOPs) himself. It is third parties that do.

Would it be the responsibilty of these third parties to release the source code and not BP?

Also, does the source code only need to be released on request?

[AZImmortal]

I have some questions..

BP does not actually release the binaries for Vision (or CoinOPs) himself. It is third parties that do.

Would it be the responsibilty of these third parties to release the source code and not BP?

Also, does the source code only need to be released on request?

These third parties don't magically have binaries appearing in their possession. BP gives them the binaries and then they distribute them to the wider public. At the time that BP gives out the binaries to anyone, he's also supposed to make the source code available to the public.

[Bigby]

Okay, he doesn't release the source code as he says that another dev does not either. (presumably)

And that other dev does not release his source code, because BP does not. (presumably)

Where do we go from here?

[xboxer]

I just thought I would chime in. I am not a coder but I've been using/ tinkering with XBMC since practically day one I've followed its development over several forums and for many years and I've seen alot of this drama unfold but I never paid it much attention, until now. I've gone through multiple powers supplies several hard drive changes and even had to swap a mother board along the way since in my house we use two xbox's with xbmc every single day, literally every day for years. I've got my 2TB xbox filled to the brim with all the xbox/xbmc/emulator/media goodness. I love xbmc and I've got xbmc builds going back for years, I've tried and tinkered with every single skin thats ever been released and even all those ones that weren't. I'm basically a power end user and I've been on a constant quest to have the most bad ass xbox ever since I first modded it back in the day. I've always thought that a skin that could play video previews of games as you browsed through them would be the most amazing thing but when I inquired about making this feature a reality at the xbmc forums and elsewhere I was told it was "impossible" and "The xbox doesn't have enough power or memory" I was basically told it couldn't be done and I was left to settle for box covers. Then when the xtras thing came along I thought that was a big big step in the right direction but it still wasn't a fully integrated emulator browser that put everything under one roof. In fact I still have the full collection of the xtras sets on my hard drive, although I can't recall the last time I've clicked on them.

Now I use Coinops 5 and I am excited like a fat kid at a pizza party for VISION, this is exactly what I've always been looking for, this is the kind of thing you show off to you friends to impress the heck out of them. We have children in the house and the simplicity of Vision and Coinops is great, they turn it on and play, no browsing through menus and selecting files etc. Just turn it on and go, the fewest amount of button presses to get to games ever. I've always been xbmc's number one fan but lately I must admit I find myself checking BP's site constantly and I can't recall the last time I checked out xbmc.org or this site even. Nothing going on here or there is as exciting as whats going on with Vision, its like the Xbox just got a 3rd lease on life and I know for a fact its what I'll be using on my xbox from here on out.

Although I appreciate and respect the hard work and dedication of all of the various developers that have made xbmc and all of these emulators what they are today, ultimately none of you personally matter to me, I mean no disrespect by this I'm just saying, to me the end user, you are all as significant in my life as the guy that assembled my smart phone or designed my car. You are all merely handles on websites with no faces or names in my world. I believe that most people would agree that we don't care who makes our stuff or where it comes from we just want it to work. As far as the license thing goes again as a long time user of xbmc, I don't care about that and neither does xbmc.org apparently since they stopped supporting the OG XBOX all together and this rag tag site is a far cry from the scenes of the past. I haven't seen anything new or exciting come out of xbmc for xbox in a long long time, can anyone tell me the last major breakthrough for xbmc for xbox? I don't see how anyone can cast the xbox that started it all aside, stop developing for it and then complain when someone else does, it doesn't make any sense to me. If not VISION then whats the next big thing for the xbox? Or are we really just supposed to just supposed to let it get old and die like xbmc.org wants? Let us not forget what the "X" in xbmc stands for regardless of what platforms it spreads too. Why try to keep alive and stalwartly defend software that is no longer supported by the developing site? In fact I could tell the difference between the last twenty buld s or so. Face it here will never be another official xbmc release for the xbox, so to say that BP is disrespecting the developers when they themselves gives no fucks about the xbox is just asinine. The "I don't care how awesome it is I'll still never use it because________" is just hater talk. I'm not saying this is XBMC Vs VISION I just dislike the attitude of the xbmc towards vision regardless of the history or the nuances of coding etc..

The bottom line is we're using a pirated machine to run pirated software to play pirated games and watch and listen to pirated movies and music and if people think we're even gonna blink at using an amazingly beautiful dashboard because someone said it wasn't officially official according to them then they are sadly mistaken. I will continue to use the latest greatest thing for my xbox whatever that may be regardless of who makes it or where it came from and right now that thing is Vision. Bye bye boring box covers and menus, hello Vision. and for the record before I get called a fool or a slug or worse aside from a post or two on his site I've never once talked to BP and I wasn't "recruited" to post here. I just felt like tossing my two sense out there because I can.

[Dom DXecutioner]

I don't think anyone is disputing whether Vision is great or otherwise, nor is anyone questioning his talent; whether ripping off (not saying that's what his doing), his new code or using code allowed by other devs, it takes skills to do what he's doing. Personally I think is pretty cool the way its turning out to be. The principal of the thing is the GPL breach, whether legal or otherwise is another matter but the code is, for all intent and purposes, LEGAL. Your gaming, tvshows, movies copyright infringement is not into question nor does it hold any value to the topic. Hacking you xbox, back in the day, not so much now, was not as legal. The xbox hardware is obsolete and the DMCA allows for such modifications.

Vision is using xbmc code - and i'm sure code from other emulation devs - to do a lot of nifty things and if anyone makes changes then that person is required to, as per the license, to provide the source code being used from xbmc; without xbmc, some features from Vision may not be available unless the dev wrote the software from the ground up, which isn't the case.

Furthermore, xbmc is first and foremost a MEDIA PLAYER not a gaming interface. Vision may be able to accomplish what it does because it doesn't include other aspects of the media player and can use those resources better to accomplish what it does. Although there isn't any way to know for a fact because there's no source code to analyse and/or use.

If Vision or any other derivative of xbmc improves it, then in the same way they found the source code useful, they should provide their code to better the system for others in the main branch.

If it is that good and the dev has good intent, in the same way xbmc devs can adjust their way of thinking, Vision's dev can, too, release the source code but he doesn't, and that makes it questionable. Who's to say he isn't using other emu dev's work without proper acknowledgement... I doubt he developed the emu from the ground up, purely speculative but not far-fetched. And let us not to mention that it is a bit disrespectful to others who contribute long hours of their personal time to this or any other project.

You run off at the mouth because you're a user and you don't do shit for the project, however, if you would be actively coding countless hours and someone else took your hard work and claim it as theirs and not follow the same rules you were following, i guarantee you'd be throwing a bitch fit! And it would make less apt to continue working on something that, as you say, hasn't shown any real progress since years ago. Which, by the way, is ignorant in your part because the numerous fixes in codecs, libraries, etc. is what makes xbmc a great MEDIA PLAYER NOT a GAMING interface.

No doubt he's doing some impressive work, even if is stitching code together from various sources, it takes skills, nonetheless. If I was a hardcore games, I would definitely use it but I use my xbox for media and I truly enjoy and I'm grateful to BuZz, xbs, whucleef, jan and all contributors to the XBOX MEDIA CENTER (XBMC if you prefer).

As a user, I don't expect you to understand but you should at least make an attempt at understanding both sides. Vision does look promising for games, but not as a media player the way it is now.

In the end, vision's dev is free to do as he wishes with his code and does not like to be bother with people asking for the source code and it's his right; conversely, xbmc dev(s) have the SAME right to make requirements be followed before endorsing or supporting any software using the xbmc code under the GPL lincense.

To each its own and all must respect each others requirements and stay clear of one another's way if a resolution isn't met. The biggest problems are the keyboard-happy (or loud mouth, if you prefer) that demand shit and don't give shit back.

I'm just saying!

[xboxer]

I'm not hating on xbmc, in fact I'm watchin' some stuff on my xbmc for xbox right now. I do see both side but like I said I'm just having a hard time caring that much. I am aware of the changes in xbmc and I must say it is running flawlessly and has been for some time now. I have them fully networked and I have a use for each and every feature. But the updates haven't brought any seriously new and innovative features or functions to the overall interface. I've been using it for so long though that something new and exciting seems extremely appealing to me. As far as it not being a full media center replacement I am underr the impression that those features will be fleshed out and integrated into vision in future releases, we are seeing pretty regular updates to vision already. If I were a coder I would code like crazy but I'm not so I don't but I've still spent hundreds of hours tinkering with with xbmc and now I have something fresh to play with. What kind of credit to people want anyway? credit for no longer officially supporting xbmc? Why get stressed out about an application that for all intensive purposes has been discontinued for the xbox platform? Its kind of like getting a new car after having the same one for the better part of a decade, it might not have the same bells and whistles but it has bells and whistles of its own that make it unique and I'm looking forward to driving it!

[Dom DXecutioner]

And that's great that you're enjoying it... keep in mind, however, that the only reason you're enjoying it is because of the xbmc4xbox dev(s) (BuZz)... Also take into consideration that he also uses commits from the main branch (in some cases he has to tweak it for the xbox) and has to follow the same rules that main branch XBMC has with regards to the GPL license.

Also, what's being integrated into VISION's media capabilities are the continuous changes being made by BuZz to xbmc. I'd be willing to bet heavily in the fact that VISION's dev isn't coding everything related to media playing from the ground up but is rather using commits from xbcm4xbox and modifying them to meet his design; which is where the problem lies. He has been critical of the devs here not playing nice but he goes and uses the code in it. That's like biting the hand that feeds you. No one likes that type of disrespect!

[SPPV]

What a surprise, another "User" who doesnt care about the people who spend years making what they have possible. Thats the kind of attitude that makes devs question releasing new stuff. You spend years making something, watch somebody take your code then turn around and claim it as original and see how you feel.

And for the record I dont release src for my work since I only do closed source projects and dont use XDK/Open XDK

[Dom DXecutioner]

At the risk of sounding like noob, if I may ask, what project(s)?

[xboxer]

Yeah I suppose one could perceived that as some sort of disrespect but I'm not seeing a whole lot of respect on either side regardless of the who said what or whys. The vast majority of people that use xbmc are not coders and know as much about what makes xbmc work as they do about how their televisions works it doesn't really matter to us that much as long as we have a great product that is fun to use. I've been putting xbmc on people xbox's for years and not once have I rattled off the screen handles of the devs the contributed. It would be like movie credits but with nicknames lol Do these dev's really just want their names mentioned is that all? How many people really care about who did what when? They're contributions should be viewed as personal success's and accomplishments but this thing has been unleashed and is free on the world now and if someone can tweak it or use parts of it to make something even better then more power to them. From my little corner of the world here I think that this is one of those cases where the ends totally justify the means.

[Dom DXecutioner]

It's not a matter of having your "handle" published everywhere in the world but rather a bit of respect for the work done; two different things.

Chances are that if you were to make possible everyone on your block owning a "pimped" out xbox because of the countless hours you put to make it happen but no one would even admit you had anything to with it and instead they'd say that they did it themselves, you'd feel under appreciated and annoyed... to know extent? who's to say, everyone reacts differently. It's one thing to hear nothing and another to simply be disrespected to your face.

I don't think BuZz or any other dev thinks that someone is gonna say, oh by the way, the software you're using is made possible by x,y,z... of course not. Though it is different when it comes to someone just shooting off at the mouth whilst using what they made possible for you; even worst to claim that it is their work to its entirety.

Still, you're missing the point... for everything that we do and/or use, there are rules that someone has put into effect, and if one uses it, you must follow those rules. If you don't, then one shouldn't expect for others that do follow it, to be kind to your disregards for such rules. Plain and simple!

Comprehension isn't a requisite of cooperation.

[xboxer]

What a surprise, another "User" who doesnt care about the people who spend years making what they have possible. Thats the kind of attitude that makes devs question releasing new stuff. You spend years making something, watch somebody take your code then turn around and claim it as original and see how you feel.

And for the record I dont release src for my work since I only do closed source projects and dont use XDK/Open XDK

I am thankful for their work but as a human its difficult to care about or for a person that you've never seen or spoken to and who real name you don't even know. I just don't associate personal emotions like "caring" with non personal screen handles on internet forums. You're right I'm not concerned with who takes credit for what, its not like you're selling a product for financial gain, it sounds to me like this is ultimately about bragging rights when it comes down to it. "I made it", "No I made it" "give me credit" "no give me credit" , Who cares its made and all those who helped made it all possible and those whoa re still helping are making it more possible. The end user experience is what its always been about hasn't it? I don't care if people say they modded a box that I modded I could care less, it doesn't affect me or my life or what I'm doing or what I'm going to do or the way I think or feel or act in any way, its just one of those things that doesn't much matter.

[Dom DXecutioner]

It's not a matter of having your "handle" published everywhere in the world but rather a bit of respect for the work done; two different things.

I don't think BuZz or any other dev thinks that someone is gonna say, oh by the way, the software you're using is made possible by x,y,z... of course not. Though it is different when it comes to someone just shooting off at the mouth whilst using what they made possible for you; even worst to claim that it is their work to its entirety.

Still, you're missing the point... for everything that we do and/or use, there are rules that someone has put into effect, and if one uses it, you must follow those rules. If you don't, then one shouldn't expect for others that do follow it, to be kind to your disregards for such rules. Plain and simple!

Comprehension isn't a requisite of cooperation.