Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

00diabolic · Post by **00diabolic** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:28 pm

Perhaps a lil off topic here but this does seem like to best place to ask this..

Does anyone have a comment on the use of the GPU on xbmc4xbox development? At one point a few years ago on another forum there was a lot of talk about the use of the GPU in XBMC. Currently only games are using the GPU and not XBMC as far as I know. This is because no one knows how to code to use it. If Nvidia was to release some information on how to code for the GPU that would make the xbox a lot better then it is now correct? Do you think they might respond to a petition?

The only issue is we would have to have people willing to spend time to write apps etc that use the GPU. I wonder if getting a petition together to get Nvidia to release the information would be a good idea. A lot of people tell us to get new equipment to run XBMC better but if the hardware is there but not being used why not breath more life into the old xbox.

I am willing to write a letter or start an online petition (time permitting) but who else thinks this is a good idea? Am I crazy? Has this already been tried?

skatulskijean · Post by **skatulskijean** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:15 pm

yes its where nice but i think nvidia give it not out and when yes we have not the developers what can that release or integrate on xbmc4xbox!

Regards Jan

Geeba · Post by **Geeba** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:34 pm

I did indeed write to nVidia some years ago asking if they would release low level access details of the GPU... They replied saying they were still tied by non disclosure act and I would have to speak to Microsoft.... I didn't bother going any further.

Many years ago there were attempts to reverse engineer it by someone, but they went MIA, I kinda think that ship has sailed unfortunately.

Post by **Dan Dar3** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:50 pm

If I were Nvidia I wouldn't bother - it's a platform that brings no new customers, they've got worse from Linus Torvalds and I didn't see them blink

If you want to look for something useful, try to find a GPU general computation library or video decoding library for DirectX 8 or 8.1, which is what I believe Xbox games were built on (and XBMC4Xbox as well).

DirectX History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#History

General-purpose computing on graphics processing units
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General-pu ... sing_units

00diabolic · Post by **00diabolic** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:19 am

Well I think its time for another letter to Nvidia. Its not going to cost them anything to release this. As for MS owning it I know Nvidia was smart and kept coding locked up to the GPU since its there soc. Its been 10 yrs and there would be no good reason and no cost to giving it up now, I think its geforce 4 or simular. Then again even if we get it skatulskijean is right there is not the manpower there once was to really use it. If I can get it who knows though.. maybe there will be a huge resurgence of interest in the old xbox. MAN I would LOVE TO SEE THAT...

professor_jonny · Post by **professor_jonny** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:38 am

buzz could port xbmc in pure assembler also that would speed things up also .
It's only like 1 million lines of code or something like that

Post by **Xphazer** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:45 am

I can't say any better than Dan, really this will most likely never happen.
If they didn't care for Linus Torvalds they will even care less about us. They have *absolutely* nothing to gain.
Before they would release anything it would cost them seriously huge amounts of money (To do it the way these guys works) on lawyers and different other things.
Don't hold your breath till it happen I'm telling you.

Now if you don't believe us, and really want to pursue your goal ^^. Forget about just a letter, that's really a waste of time... Go for a petition first.. then send a letter.

Geeba · Post by **Geeba** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:44 am

Found my letter I sent in 2009 if your interested:-

Question Reference #090813-000004
Summary: Good morning I thought I'd just email and ask you on the off chance, I'm a ve...
Product Level 1: Graphics cards
Category Level 1: Product Information
Date Created: 08/13/2009 02:37 AM
Last Updated: 08/13/2009 02:37 AM
Status: New
Choose OS: Other Microsoft
Product Name: NV2A - XGPU
Driver Version: unknown

Discussion Thread
Customer () 08/13/2009 02:37 AM
Good morning
I thought I'd just email and ask you on the off chance, I'm a very keen fan of the XBMC Project (formerly Xbox Media Centre) and as you know the original Xbox is long gone now and only lives on with I might add a HUGE fan base as a fantastic media centre!
Unfortunately the hardware is also showing its age but still unbelievable what has been achieved up to now.
Nvidia supplied a lot of the components in the original Xbox including the GPU which is rumoured to have enough power to decode 720p H264 video if full access to it could ever be achieved....

To give the Xbox a last kick and squeeze the last of the power out of it I was wondering if you could or would be willing to help? Maybe you had a way of this chip doing a lot more than the xbox/Microsoft ever did with it? Or if you could give some details that you think may help – maybe how to make the GPU access more than 64Mb RAM for 128Mb Xboxes… anything at all really - it would be greatly appreciate.
Kind regards

Response (MZ) 08/14/2009 10:31 AM
Hello,

Your case is being escalated to our Level 2 Tech Support group. The Level 2 agents will review the case notes. As this process may take some time we ask that you be patient and a Level 2 tech will contact you with the relevant information.

Regards,
Matiuj
NVIDIA Customer Care
Customer () 08/14/2009 02:49 AM
I miss read your reply - we dont need help with XBMC - we need help with the GPU - the Nvidia NV2A - XGPU, we were hoping for some development info that you may of had on record still....

It was at this point they said the development was for Microsoft and they were the only people who could support the NV2A XGPU.

Post by **Dan Dar3** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:50 am

That also makes sense, we need the software part, not the hardware design

And even if we get the low level technical details (either hardware or software), none of us has the experience in working with those - we need something a little higher level, a library that would allow to make general computations on the GPU. It's well possible games have used other licensed libraries for video decoding, like Bink and such, and you get into more ask these guys...

Look, I'll start with these links - start looking for code samples or evidence of anyone trying to make them work on Xbox original and how far they got:

BrookGPU
http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/brookgpu/

GPGPU.org
http://gpgpu.org/developer

Post by **BuZz** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:14 pm

even if they did release stuff which they won't, there is no-one with the knowledge to do anything with it.

Geeba · Post by **Geeba** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:20 pm

BuZz wrote:even if they did release stuff which they won't, there is no-one with the knowledge to do anything with it.

Exactly! except for BuZz! he's well clever! DOH! that was BuZz! LOL!

Just kiddin...

00diabolic · Post by **00diabolic** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:29 pm

Well I gotta try guys and you never know what your gonna get.

Here is my letter to Nvidia..

Hello,

I am writing to ask Nvidia if they would consider releasing some of the software intellectual property related to a now extinct product. That being the 10yr+ old original xbox NV2A (GPUGeForce 3). This is a request for Nvidia to release development information, dev kit software written for the the Nvodia NV2A GPU for Microsoft and included in Xbox 1 XDK (5849 & 5933), related specifications for access to GPU and any other related material. I know that Microsoft owns the xbox name and I am not requesting any information that Nvidia does not own the rights to. I am also not requesting any xbox hardware only related software written by Nvidia. As the original developer of the NV2A chip you have the details of how the graphics processor can be accessed for software development. My request is for the release of this information. This is simply a request to provide this information to continue development on the original xbox.

I am a huge fan of the original xbox, GeForce 3/3Dfx & NV2A GPU and only wish to continue seeing it being used in the small community I am part of. I know this release will not bring any profit to Nvidia but it will bring some amount of good publicity and PR. I and others in my community will see to that through word of mouth. There is no profit or value left in the original xbox & NV2A GPU after 10 yrs and we are not going to affect any other markets for Nvidia with our meager development at this point. So really there is no cost and no loss for Nvidia to release what they have.

I do not want this request to come off to broadly. I am not requesting SOC designs for the GPU as this should remain the property of Nvidia. I did not make this request to Microsoft because they have already told me that Nvidia owns the GPU patents and related IP for the NV2A GPU. This request is simply looking for information in order to fully utilize the NV2A GPU in developing new software and any information you can provide to do that would be helpful. I also do not want to limit my request so if you have anything else you would be willing to share related to the original xbox I would like to have that. Please do consider my request, you as a company will suffer no loss in releasing this information and it is simply a kind thing to do to show appreciation to your customer base. I have continued to be an Nvidia customer for many years since buying the original xbox and have recently purchased an Asus tf700 which has a great tegra 3 chipset and I am very happy with it.

Kind regards and thank you for your consideration.

Will see what happens next.. Who knows.. I am sending this to all media related people within Nvidia. They are the most connected as someone high up would have to allow the release of this info anyway.

Post by **BuZz** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:55 am

Don't want to sound negative, but it isn't going to happen. And anyway, any hardware documentation will be little/no use at this stage. Most likely is that we get unwanted attention to the project from people don't approve of running homebrew on modded consoles.

professor_jonny · Post by **professor_jonny** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:25 am

There is an open source linux driver here may be of intrest to you as it is reverse engineered geforce chipset possibilly the same as the old xbox.
it will give you a basis to start work but it is based on opengl

http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/
http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/nv

00diabolic · Post by **00diabolic** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:27 pm

I'm not skilled enough to code anything myself but I was hoping if the details were released we would all benefit from any new development brought to XBMC4xbox from the release.

Post by **Dan Dar3** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:31 pm

It's a start, but from my point of view we need to focus on what we can use - the hardware details are too level for us to use, a driver (even one that can make computations on GPU) would require a dive in to figure out the useful parts and extract them out. A DirectX library that could decode video frames or make general computations on the GPU, now that's I think something that we may be able to reuse.

Post by **BuZz** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:11 am

I agree with the comments above, but I wanted to add a couple of points - firstly, that I completely appreciate the intentions of the original post and the letter to nvidia, even though I don't agree with it directly. It is though, great that people want to help the project, and I am always happy when people come here with ideas, rather than problems

Secondly, however, I think it is worth mentioning, that petitioning for nvidia docs is not a new thing. This has been done before, and if they had ever given out information then projects like Nouveau wouldn't be needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouveau_%28software%29

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallium3D

I think on my old geforce2 laptop, I don't get 3d without the proprietory driver.

Nvidia has stated in public many times about why they can't release any driver source/specs. Mostly due to 3rd party licences afair.
The famous (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ) outburst to nvidia from Linus didn't change much to their attitude, apart from them fixing the chipset support in their closed driver for the card that was mentioned in the question that triggered Linus' retort.

00diabolic · Post by **00diabolic** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:42 pm

Ok what if we got the dev kit software? I asked Nvidia for that and it would have to use direct x drivers which could help us use the GPU better in XBMC. Its built to make video games but I'm sure many of those games had video in them.

Post by **BuZz** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:18 pm

Microsoft own the development kit .. see http://www.xbmc4xbox.org.uk/wiki/Microsoft_Xbox_SDK

Please do not email them about it.

fxmech · Post by **fxmech** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:27 pm

For what it's worth, this discussion is making me regret my decision to stop pursuing my BS in CS.

Thanks for the perspective BuZz.

That NDA is probably binding indefinitely and will likely require negotiations between MS and nVidia lawyers.

Another real killer is the fact these companies are actively bidding on current contracts, for current consoles. Undoubtedly these negotiations get intense. When MS or any other big company come looking to produce something like this, nVidia will probably view this as poison to their resume. MS could consider this a breach of trust.

Aside from an act of good faith through MS themselves (and hence voluntarily ending agreements like the one we are discussing), we have little chance to see it.

Have any of the emulation projects been able to make steps toward alternatives? The CPU speed make me want to break my Xbox (by trying a CPU upgrade

).

Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.

Re: Using the GPU.. Possible? Lets petition Nvidia.