Vision dashboard

[murphio]

Any of you guys had an early peak at this? Apparantly BP has a revision nearly ready based on the XBMC code and it meant to be awesome. I seen a clip on youtube and it potentially looks mind boggling. His coinops is a work of genius - if this Vision is a patch on it there are some very exciting times ahead. Little video clips as you browse your media files - wow, just wow.

[BuZz]

No matter how awesome it might be, his work is still a breach of the XBMC source licence, and as such until he remedies this, it is pretty unwelcome here. The same as this project would be unwelcome by xbmc if we did not adhere to the XBMC GPL licence.

Coinops is the same. I am aware BP will often point people to some old sources or say "search on google" but this isn't how it works. I'm not even going to get into a discussion about it really. His recent release of "Vision" has no sources with it at all. It is hard (impossible actually) to even have a sensible discussion with him. Not that I want to either, despite having tried.

[murphio]

There seems to be some animosity between you coders that I am not privy to; which is a shame because all of you have produced some pretty amazing stuff. Coinops is the best thing I have seen in 30 years of gaming actually. Vision looks like it could take the Xbox dashboard to a whole new level for us fans of the old girl. Hope you guys manage to resolve your differences.

[Xphazer]

It seems like you didn't even read BuZz last message.... Nothing to do with animosity of any sort..
The creator of CoinOps (and Vision) is not respecting the programmers "inside rules" (which are also valable as legal rules)

I'm very very tired that people think its a conflict between 2 party...
Its not.. The problem come from a single party who doesn't play fair game. I really wish we could do anything to help it.

[murphio]

You misunderstand; I neither know - nor care a jot - of the 'inside rules' (ffs) behind the apparent animosity between any group. I mean seriously? What are you on about? Maybe coders know but me, the user, hasn't the first clue. Don't mistake me for someone who gives a dam about any stupid feud or 'coders rules'. All I know is that, thanks to people like Buzz and BP, I have enjoyed XBMC for years and, thanks the latter, have just opened a new world to my old xbox re coinops and (hopefully) Vision. Peace dude - long live XBMC and long live Vision.

[BuZz]

You should give a damn. we are talking about him ripping off people's work, by not respecting the licence that the code was released under. The xbox scene would be better off without this sort of activity.

[xman]

I'm getting real tied of this crap. A hand full of fools that believe B.P. is hard done by from other people within the community. I suspect as a result of sucking up everything they are told by the person in question and equally believe how good he could make it all if only he was given a chance by others. Anyone that has been in this community as long as B.P. as I have would know he was banned for Xbox=scene and although I have absolutely nothing to do with games on the Xbox, several emulator sites as well and always as a result of the same things, big noting his ability and taking credit for work done by others. Once the fools wake up to what's going on, they move on, nothing happens for months until another bunch of fools are dragged in from other sites and the whole thing repeats. "Slugs" have always been recruited to make posts like this-

Any of you guys had an early peak at this? Apparantly BP has a revision nearly ready based on the XBMC code and it meant to be awesome. I seen a clip on youtube and it potentially looks mind boggling. His coinops is a work of genius - if this Vision is a patch on it there are some very exciting times ahead. Little video clips as you browse your media files - wow, just wow.

So I ask you all, who is actually destroying this community? I would also like to offer my condolences to whoever the creator of this awesome "Vision" actually is or whether it is just another "Cut and Paste" video created until new blood is dragged in from other sites to try and make this a reality. Anyone doubting what I have written here ask yourself, why is there never any documentation of any work available as requested by others and required by the license to protect others work from being plagiarized?. Should be real easy to make this documentation available like everyone one else has to when creating new work if you are indeed the creator of the said work and stop people for making "Outrageous allegations".

[whufclee]

Ok just a reply to the OP, yes I have it and it's looking awesome. Very similar to the Hyperspin frontend on PC, I really didn't think the xbox would be capable of this but so far it's looking very good. Still not had chance to test out my CO5 installation but had a play on this yesterday... not sure which dash will be going in my next arcade cab now

[murphio]

Holy lord - I'm a slug? Jeez Louise. I honestly wouldnt have posted this thread had I known the replies that would come my way. I didnt realise such animosity existed. I will leave you all to it - lifes far too short.

[BuZz]

there are strong feelings between every single xbox developer and bp, for the reasons already listed. No-one likes their code being ripped off. We all benefit from emulators and software that is GPL (or other) licensed, and we have to all follow the rules. No one has it in for you personally, so please don't take it that way.

However this is an important issue, and users and devs should care alike.

We should probably put something in some guidelines somewhere to make it easier for people to avoid discussing it here. it doesn't go down well, but then it wouldn't go down well on xbmc forum if I wrote about a project I had written using their code without following their rules, or the MAME forum, or any other forum where developers have put in so much work, and have licensed their code in a certain way only for it to be abused.

We build on the work of XBMC main devs, and we are grateful and respectful to them and the licence.

I realise you didn't know this when you came on. You certainly do now and I hope you understand and appreciate the reasons.

[murphio]

Open source/plagiarism is a bit of an oxymoron is it not Buzz? I thought the idea behind open source was that the code was freely available for others to use and improve upon. If you don't want your code used - why make it open source in the first place? The bottom line for me is that - regardless of how it was achieved - coinops is here and it is the best thing ever to hit xbox (in my humble opinion). If BP were selling it I could understand the ire but he isn't. Again, I don't really want to get involved in the politics but if this Vision makes owning an Xbox a more enjoyable experience for us all as xbox lovers - isn't that what we want? Were it not for coinops I would have put my xbox in the cupboard. These programmes are doing things that cant be achieved on the likes of an Apple TV. That's my last word on it. As with everything in life - there is always two sides to every story.

[BuZz]

Open source/plagiarism is a bit of an oxymoron is it not Buzz? I thought the idea behind open source was that the code was freely available for others to use and improve upon. If you don't want your code used - why make it open source in the first place?.

pardon? I am happy for the code to be used. I am just not happy about it being used and discussions of the projects on here that refuse to play by the rules. (the rules being to make available full source releases with their binary releases under the same licence).

I didn't make the xbmc code open source btw (GPL to be specific). the original XBMC team did, and I respect that.

Click the development button and you will see all the source repositories, even the whole website code is available to all. Not to mention the wiki which has a completely open licence, and is dumped as xml to ftp everyday for others to use and for preservation.

I also run a 16 year old retro gaming website with an open licence where the data is used and shared by a variety of others including wikipedia. An open source perl module included in Debian/ubuntu that others are free to use and build on. Linux distributions for the O2 joggler that others base their work on, and modify.

I welcome it. so long as it is done in the proper manner.

Don't believe everything you read/hear.

[murphio]

Fair enough Buzz - like I say there is always two sides to every story mate. You did however claim that BP stole other people's work. I'm not exactly sure how you can 'steal' something which is designed to be free, to be taken and improved upon? If BP broke 'rules' of the Dev community in relation to not releasing his improved code then I can certainly see the issue - what I don't see is how this amounts to stealing? How can you steal something that is free?

I keep coming back to the bottom line. What is this community really about? The few dozen coders who have the skills to create and improve the software? Or the millions of consumers, like me, who enjoy the finished product? Has coinops improved the Xbox scene? Does Vision have the potential to improve the xbox scene? If the answer to these questions is yes - and surely only a yoghurt would argue otherwise - then I honestly don't see the issue. Your goal is either to make great free stuff for the xbox or it isn't. If you are in this for credit and personal gain then I would protect the code and sell what you make - and I would have no issue with that, I'd be happy to pay.

I don't believe its fair to call BP a thief - he pays for the hosting of a website and he puts many man hours into developing stuff for others to enjoy for no personal gain - bar a little back slapping which is probably deserved. This is not to appear unappreciative for anything for you personally have done for the XBOX because believe me I think the software you help keep alive is awesome.

[BuZz]

Fair enough Buzz - like I say there is always two sides to every story mate. You did however claim that BP stole other people's work. I'm not exactly sure how you can 'steal' something which is designed to be free, to be taken and improved upon? If BP broke 'rules' of the Dev community in relation to not releasing his improved code then I can certainly see the issue - what I don't see is how this amounts to stealing? How can you steal something that is free?

I never said steal, i said ripping off code (which can mean as much as swindling/cheating the original authors - I am not comparing it to stealing, although some might), which he does while he disrespects the GPL and the wishes of the original authors. Please don't put words into my mouth. You also have shown you have zero knowledge of the GPL so I recommend you go and do some reading, before coming here to tell me how it should be.

I keep coming back to the bottom line. What is this community really about? The few dozen coders who have the skills to create and improve the software? Or the millions of consumers, like me, who enjoy the finished product? Has coinops improved the Xbox scene? Does Vision have the potential to improve the xbox scene? If the answer to these questions is yes - and surely only a yoghurt would argue otherwise - then I honestly don't see the issue. Your goal is either to make great free stuff for the xbox or it isn't. If you are in this for credit and personal gain then I would protect the code and sell what you make - and I would have no issue with that, I'd be happy to pay.

It certainly isn't about you, who is currently showing a complete lack of respect for the work of others (or complete lack of understanding, but then why argue something you don't understand ?). If you understood the GPL you wouldn't even need to ask about protecting the code. The code is under the GPL, which I abide to. It was licenced by the original developers, who have put in a lot more work than I. Luckily most of the "millions" of consumers have a better understanding.

I don't believe its fair to call BP a thief - he pays for the hosting of a website and he puts many man hours into developing stuff for others to enjoy for no personal gain - bar a little back slapping which is probably deserved. This is not to appear unappreciative for anything for you personally have done for the XBOX because believe me I think the software you help keep alive is awesome.

oh, now I called him a thief too! Where are you pulling this rubbish from.

if you think it is so awesome, how about showing a little respect for me and the others in the project.

[murphio]

If by showing respect you mean I just agree with everything you say then I can't do that on this one. I don't wish to antagonise you Buzz so we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I do wish I had never ventured onto this topic so please feel free to delete it.

[BuZz]

Go over to xbmc forum and tell them you don't agree with their licence or the MAME forum for example.

[Bigby]

@buzz

Is it only XBMC that needs to comply with the GPL license?

I know this is a XBMC site, but in general, could you give your views on the state of the Xbox scene in regards to compliance with the GPL license. In particular, emulators ported to Xbox, and that are continually being worked on.

[BuZz]

@buzz

Is it only XBMC that needs to comply with the GPL license?

I know this is a XBMC site, but in general, could you give your views on the state of the Xbox scene in regards to compliance with the GPL license. In particular, emulators ported to Xbox, and that are continually being worked on.

I don't pick and choose - Everyone should honour the source licence from the original developers, because it is the right thing to do, and it isn't a difficult thing to abide by. We benefit greatly from all the open source emulator code out there, and without the code being available we wouldn't have half of the emulators we have now.

I'm obviously sensitive when it comes to our own project, but everyone should do the decent thing. That goes for emuxtras devs, coinops, me and anyone else. In fact I have been vocal about this before over at emuxtras when it came up regarding FBL source I think, which was then released. So if anyone on any other particular website thinks I am being selective they are mistaken.

There is this fear amongst some devs that by releasing the code, others who are not being compliant will benefit, and not release back changes. it's true, and a shame, hence I push for it. However that is not a reason to avoid being compliant yourself.

In any other homebrew scene, it just wouldn't be acceptable, so I don't know why it should be here.

[Bigby]

I agree that everyone needs to comply wit the GPL license. I also understand this fear that certain devs have of releasing their source code.

This is why in the past my views on GPL were not in favour of it, especially on Xbox, as it could not be applied fairly to the Xbox scene (due to this fear of releasing their code). My approach however to the matter was wrong back then, I see that now.

My issue is that the discussion over GPL and open source in general is heaped upon just this one dev, while the other is too taboo to even mention. I can understand why, but to me, it is not fair and balanced.

[BuZz]

Well, im not sure it is heaped as you say. There are also other variables here. In this case regarding xbmc based stuff, that is obviously my primary concern, and I think if anyone went to the MAME forum discussing a project that was built on MAME code but didn't adhere to the MAME licence they would not take kindly to it either.

There are also a lot of untruths being told elsewhere. You have to make of it what you will - I think the evidence speaks for itself in regards to the licence issues. I don't think anyone is a victim, and the situation is a result of their own rather difficult behaviour.

I'm not sure which one is taboo. but if it is any of the emuxtras devs, I am quite happy to tell them my mind regarding this. However, It's not my job to enforce GPL compliancy of every single xbox project.